{"id":681,"date":"2019-03-19T21:20:01","date_gmt":"2019-03-19T21:20:01","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/virtualseminar.icae.global\/?p=681"},"modified":"2019-03-19T21:20:05","modified_gmt":"2019-03-19T21:20:05","slug":"comment-by-gianela-turnes","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/virtualseminar.icae.global\/?p=681","title":{"rendered":"Comment by Gianela Turnes"},"content":{"rendered":"\n

Gianela Turnes comments on the article\u00a0<\/strong>\u201cThe challenges regarding data production<\/strong><\/a>\u201d<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

El texto en espa\u00f1ol est\u00e1 abajo.<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n

PhD student in Communication at the National University of La Plata Honorary Collaborator of the\u00a0<\/strong>UNESCO Chair in Youth and Adult Education Uruguay, Faculty of Human and Educational Sciences<\/strong><\/em>, University of the Republic, Montevideo, Uruguay<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

I understand the subject is of great interest. The article focuses on practical difficulties. There are other theories whose debate would contribute to strengthening the paradigm of lifelong education by going beyond the basic objectives of literacy, certification or the development of job skills that may tempt evaluators of policies associated with management.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

The difficulty in assessing outcomes identified by the author as a problem could be seen as an intrinsic characteristic of education. ALE has an intentionality, it must be clear in promoting educational practices. But the systematic evaluation of learning objectives at the aggregate level would imply such a simplification with respect to the changes that could have been stimulated in the subject that the contribution to the understanding of the process would be sterile.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

The author introduces the variable of time, which is key, although I understand it associated with the evolution of the temporary effects on people. Certainly, the methodological changes constitute an alteration that worries technicians and complex systems are usually elaborated for the comparability of indicators. But the effects over time of educational practices with ALE transcend any consideration of short-term effects. In an educational policy with a limited purpose, like education in health habits, for example, such a measurement of results could be justified. On the other hand, when considering educational practices with a broad conception of lifelong learning, it seems risky to quantify effects beyond the measurement of enrollment and perhaps program completion.In the terms proposed in the article, the construct validity <\/em>of the test to be applied to evaluate practice can be discussed when it is intended to transcend objectives of instruction, training, or development of competences – such as a basic literacy program or a development of work competences program – and instead expand the possibilities of the person to choose his or her life options.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

With regard to data processing, it is always relevant to ensure its methodological correctness and consistency. However, there is a risk of using adequate and correctly applied methodologies to validate conceptually questionable or biased approximations towards purposes other than ALE.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

The statement: “many people complete schooling without developing the competences and skills that they should<\/em>” refers again to the problem of the article: how to evaluate and substantiate this supposed result. And when is it appropriate to establish such a cut in order to determine the competences and skills developed with the certification? immediately after obtaining it? It seems to be an approach that assumes that all educational processes are closed upon completion of the certifying training. This does not seem to be consistent with a broad conception of education that places the responsibility of learning on the educational subject and that assumes the continuity of such learning while the subject faces his\/her vital post-certification adventure. Nor does it admit learning from error.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

In short, I understand that care in the use of indicators transcends the methodology referred to collection and measurement, and demands that we ensure consistency between the internationally endorsed guiding conceptual principles of ALE and the methodological devices for its evaluation.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

\n\n\n\n

Granela Turnes comenta sobre el art\u00edculo\u00a0<\/strong>\u201cLos desaf\u00edos que plantea la generaci\u00f3n de datos\u201c<\/strong><\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n

estudiante de doctorado en Comunicaci\u00f3n Universidad Nacional de La Plata, Colaboradora Honoraria de la\u00a0<\/strong>C\u00e1tedra UNESCO de Educaci\u00f3n de Personas J\u00f3venes y Adultas Uruguay, Facultad de Humanidades y Ciencias de la Educaci\u00f3n<\/strong><\/em>, Universidad de la Rep\u00fablica, Montevideo, Uruguay<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

Entiendo que el tema tiene gran inter\u00e9s. El art\u00edculo focaliza en las dificultades pr\u00e1cticas. Existen otras te\u00f3ricas cuyo debate contribuir\u00eda a afianzar el paradigma de educaci\u00f3n a lo largo de toda la vida trascendiendo objetivos b\u00e1sicos de alfabetizaci\u00f3n, certificaci\u00f3n o desarrollo de competencias laborales que pueden tentar a los evaluadores de pol\u00edticas asociadas a una gesti\u00f3n.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

La dificultad para evaluar resultados que se\u00f1ala el autor como problema podr\u00eda considerarse una caracter\u00edstica intr\u00ednseca de la educaci\u00f3n. La EPJA tiene una intencionalidad, ella debe estar clara al promover las pr\u00e1cticas educativas. Pero la evaluaci\u00f3n sistem\u00e1tica de objetivos de aprendizaje a nivel agregado implicar\u00eda tal simplificaci\u00f3n respecto a los cambios que se podr\u00edan haber estimulado en el sujeto que el aporte a la comprensi\u00f3n del proceso ser\u00eda est\u00e9ril.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

El autor introduce la variable temporal, ella resulta clave, aunque la entiendo asociada a la evoluci\u00f3n de los efectos temporales sobre las personas. Naturalmente los cambios metodol\u00f3gicos constituyen  una alteraci\u00f3n que preocupa a los t\u00e9cnicos y suelen elaborarse complejos sistemas para  la comparabilidad de indicadores. Pero los efectos a lo largo del tiempo de las pr\u00e1cticas educativas con PJA trascienden toda consideraci\u00f3n de efectos de corto plazo. En una pol\u00edtica educativa con un fin acotado, educaci\u00f3n en h\u00e1bitos sanitarios por ejemplo, podr\u00eda justificarse tal medici\u00f3n de resultados. En cambio al considerar pr\u00e1cticas educativas con una concepci\u00f3n amplia de educaci\u00f3n ALTV parece arriesgado cuantificar efectos m\u00e1s all\u00e1 de la medici\u00f3n de la matr\u00edcula y quiz\u00e1 la culminaci\u00f3n del programa.En los t\u00e9rminos planteados en el art\u00edculo, la validez de constructo<\/em>del test a aplicar para evaluar la pr\u00e1ctica puede ser discutida cuando se pretende trascender objetivos de instrucci\u00f3n, capacitaci\u00f3n o desarrollo de competencias – como podr\u00eda ser un programa de alfabetizaci\u00f3n b\u00e1sica o de desarrollo de competencias laborales \u2013 y en cambio ampliar las posibilidades de la persona de elegir sus opciones vitales.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Respecto al procesamiento de datos, siempre es relevante asegurar su correcci\u00f3n y consistencia metodol\u00f3gica. No obstante, existe el riesgo de utilizar metodolog\u00edas adecuadas y correctamente aplicadas para validar aproximaciones conceptualmente discutibles o sesgadas hacia fines distintos de los de la EPJA.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

La afirmaci\u00f3n: \u201cmuchos alumnos terminan la etapa escolar sin haber desarrollado las competencias y las aptitudes esperadas<\/em>\u201d remite nuevamente al problema del art\u00edculo: c\u00f3mo evaluar y fundamentar ese supuesto resultado. Y en qu\u00e9 momento es adecuado establecer ese corte para determinar las    competencias y aptitudes desarrolladas con la certificaci\u00f3n: \u00bfinmediatamente despu\u00e9s de obtenerla? Parece un enfoque que asume que todos los procesos educativos se cierran al completar la formaci\u00f3n certificadora. Esto no parece consistente con una concepci\u00f3n amplia de educaci\u00f3n que coloca la responsabilidad del aprendizaje en el sujeto educativo  y  que asume la continuidad de ese aprendizaje mientras \u00e9l va enfrentando su peripecia vital post certificaci\u00f3n. Tampoco admite el aprendizaje a partir del error.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

En suma, entiendo que el cuidado en el uso de indicadores trasciende lo metodol\u00f3gico referido a recolecci\u00f3n y medici\u00f3n, y exige que aseguremos la consistencia entre los principios conceptuales rectores de la EPJA refrendados internacionalmente y los dispositivos metodol\u00f3gicos para su evaluaci\u00f3n.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

\n\n\n\n

Links to the AED 85\/2018 publication in three languages: English<\/a>, French<\/a>, S<\/a>panish<\/a>
Estos son los links para acceder a la publicaci\u00f3n en tres idiomas: In<\/a>gl\u00e9s<\/a>, Franc\u00e9s<\/a>, Espa\u00f1ol<\/a>
Voici les liens vers la publication en trois langues: Anglais <\/a>, Fran\u00e7ais<\/a>, Espagnol<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n

Veuillez utiliser <\/strong><\/em>google translator<\/strong><\/em><\/a> pour traduire les articles qui ne sont pas en fran\u00e7ais<\/strong><\/em><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

Gianela Turnes comments on the article\u00a0\u201cThe challenges regarding data production\u201d El texto en espa\u00f1ol est\u00e1 abajo. PhD student in Communication at the National University of La Plata Honorary Collaborator of the\u00a0UNESCO Chair in Youth and Adult Education Uruguay, Faculty of<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":2,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_monsterinsights_skip_tracking":false,"_monsterinsights_sitenote_active":false,"_monsterinsights_sitenote_note":"","_monsterinsights_sitenote_category":0,"footnotes":""},"categories":[7],"tags":[],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/virtualseminar.icae.global\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/681"}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/virtualseminar.icae.global\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/virtualseminar.icae.global\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/virtualseminar.icae.global\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/users\/2"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/virtualseminar.icae.global\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcomments&post=681"}],"version-history":[{"count":1,"href":"https:\/\/virtualseminar.icae.global\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/681\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":682,"href":"https:\/\/virtualseminar.icae.global\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/681\/revisions\/682"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/virtualseminar.icae.global\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fmedia&parent=681"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/virtualseminar.icae.global\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcategories&post=681"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/virtualseminar.icae.global\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Ftags&post=681"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}